Fresh Air - Best Of: Jill Scott / Riz Ahmed

Episode Date: March 28, 2026

R&B artist Jill Scott shares some of the lessons she learned from the legends who came before her, including the moment she first met Aretha Franklin. Scott’s new album is ‘To Whom This May Concern.’  Also, actor Riz Ahmed talks about his Prime Video series, ‘Bait.’ He plays a British Pakistani actor auditioning to be the next James Bond. He talks about drawing from moments in his own life, battling self-criticism and chasing acceptance. To manage podcast ad preferences, review the links below:See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

From W. H.Y.Y.Y. in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, musician Jill Scott. She shares some of the lessons she learned from the legends who came before her, including the moment she first met Arita Franklin and what the Queen of Seoul asked her to do. Go to the corner and get me two hot dogs with cooked onions and mustard, and I went. Yes. Also, actor Riz Ahmed talks about his new series, Bait. He plays a British Pakistani actor, auditioning to be the next James Bond. When writing the script, he drew from moments in his own life. Like the time he got kicked out of a supermarket, the same week it was revealed, he was in Star Wars.

And we get into it back and forth and I'm so frustrated at one point, I go, dude, I'm not shoplifting. I'm Star Wars, man. And they got, okay, this person's definitely crazy. And you're banned. You're never coming back here. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend. This is Fresh Air Weekend, I'm Tanya Mosley. My first guest today is singer, songwriter, and actor, Jill Scott.

She released her sixth studio album to whom this may concern last month, her first new music in a decade. Here's a single from the album called Precia. I wanted you in the day time as well as the night. I'd made you just sit right. I guess I can just like. The song recently went to number one on the Billboard Adult R&B Airplay chart. And it's about the weight of being asked to look, sound, and move through the world a certain way,

and being desired in private, but not claimed in public. Jill Scott has been making music for more than 25 years. The story goes that Quest's love of the roots first discovered her is part of Philadelphia's spoken word scene. Her 2000 debut, Who is Jill Scott? Words and Sounds, Volume 1, answered its own question with double platinum sales, three Grammy nominations, and a sound that has helped define NeoSoul. Since then, Scott has won three Grammys, written a best-selling book of poetry, and built an acting career that has spanned from HBO's No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency, BET Plus's First Wives Club, and the role of Sheila and Tyler

Perry's Why Did I Get Married? A character so beloved, Tyler Perry is bringing her back this year, and why did I get married again for Netflix? And Jill Scott, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you. It's a pleasure to have you. I feel the same way. I'm so happy to be here. That song, Pressa, what a song for your first single and 13 years. Yes. And you've been gone living life and doing your own thing. And when you say you've been been pining it, you've been wanting it. What do you mean? Was that break intentional? Or was it also a mix of you just trying to find your way back in some way to get to that thing that you're talking about? I literally loved writing from the very first time I read Nikki Giovanni's poetry.

Loved it. And how old was that? When was that? I was, I think, 12 or 13. loved it. Never really saw myself on paper before. I could smell the lotion between my grandmother's legs when she would braid my hair when I read Nikki Giovanni. Like, I love that. I want to write like that. And when you say you want to write like that, I think for me, one of the most powerful things about Nikki Giovanni is she made the ordinary so beautiful. It was the place you wanted to be. talking about the joy of killing a pregnant roach, you know? Yeah. Yes. Yes, I know that joy. There's actually a song on the album called Ode to Nicky.

That's right. And what's really powerful about it is it's in the cadence of the way Nikki wrote. I want to play a little bit of it, and we'll talk a little bit more about it on the other side. She is not trapped in a perpetual loop. They are not doing what they are used to. He is not sitting on the same concrete wishing. She is a living, alive, celestine prophecy. He can actually taste his own vibrancy.

She is swaying to her symphony. Rocking, rocking her hammock, feeling the breeze, self-motivating, self-satisfactioning, Wonder-filled curiosity, exciting. Cages crumbled, much pride, much humble, much fumbled. No more dumbing down for what, for who. Exquisite views, intentional luxury, mind-bending the spoon, Complex simplicity, sympathical, beautiful beings touched by the sun, redefining, shining, vibrating sonically.

That was my guest, Jill Scott, and that's a cut from her latest album, to whom this may concern. And that cut is called O to Nikki. And you were really young, so you were about 12 or 13 when you first found her. Do you remember what it was you were reading? No. I honestly don't remember what it was. I should.

I remember the picture. And I remember how I felt. It was a book of poetry. But my English teacher named was Fran Danish. She gave us a list of people to do an essay about. And I landed on Nikki Giovanni. And I just thought it was probably like some Italian guy or some Italian lady. Yes.

And I found this poet. Ego tripping, obviously, you know, was big for me, particularly in the quote-unquote neo-soul era. We were all discovering poets and having poetry slams. In college, I tried to get into her class and couldn't. Yeah. Oh, I tried. Couldn't get in that class. I never actually had a chance to shake her hand.

You never met her. I never met her. but the impact is massive. Let's talk a little bit about growing up in Philadelphia. You grew up primarily with your mom and your grandmother in North Philly. Yes. And this is not always the case, but the thing that I've been thinking about is some of the lessons that you learned by being in a multi-generational home of women. You're someone who exudes very much femininity and softness.

but also kind of a way of being, you set this intention with every piece of music that you put out there. What was your multi-generational household like? Good question. First of all, full of love and humor. My mother and my grandmother both competed for my attention. Yep, through humor. Sometimes. Sometimes.

I've been beloved. Okay. So they competed for my attention. My grandmother was born in 1917. She had a whole bunch of stories. Bunches and bunches of stories. She's brown, so brown. And her skin texture was like a soft peach.

Ah, stunning. She looks very much like the actress. I think her name is Wumi. Oh, from sinners. Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. That's what my grandmother looked like.

She's the one that gave me God, my grandmother. She introduced you to God. Here. Well, she also was singer herself? Yes, but only in private. I think I've heard you say she sounded like Mahalia Jackson. Something like that. Just sincere.

What were the other ways that your mom and grandma tried to, get your attention, compete for your attention. That's an interesting thing because typically it's the other way around. The kid is trying to get the attention of the adults. No. My grandmother was in the front room. My mother was in the back, and I could go and visit one, and then I had to go and visit the other, and then go visit the other.

And that was my days, you know, going back and forth. But they wouldn't come together. Now they worked together beautifully in creating a home. A home was very, very important to my grandmother. mother and became very important to my mother as well. We lived in North Philadelphia. There were lots of R-O-D-N-T-S's. Yeah. My mother fought them hand and nail. Like literally, like mice and roaches. Yes, that bought them hard and she won. She got the house next door to us. It had been abandoned. It was one of the reasons why there was so much going on. Got that house, clean that

house up. Do you remember when she decided I'm going to buy that house next door and I'm a, I'm going to clean it up? And what you thought as a young girl watching your mom do that? I just thought it was dope. These are the things I expect out of her. My mother will make you a pair of pants, you know, she could do that. Make you a great soup that'll keep you full all day long. You know, she could do that. She started doing drywall with people. You know, way to make money, but also to learn how to put up drywall. And then she started learning how to put down hardwood floors and then some plumbing. So she was hanging around some people that knew how to do some things. Was this all in her day job? Because she was a dental hygienist, too, right?

Right. For a while. She was a dental hygienist until I was about 14. But then, you know, after that, it was, I'm going to do whatever I want. And that was a little tough because we didn't know, you know, how we were eating. But she did what she wanted to do. And one of the things she wanted to do was clean up this house. It was important to her. And that's what she did. Because all those rotans in an abandoned house is making it their way to your house.

Right. Yeah. Right. Was there a lot of music in your home? There was some. Uh-huh. There were nights when my mother wanted to talk and she would play Millie Jackson. And we would drink Manashevitz.

that was a thing. What is that? Manashevitz is like a Jewish wine. I think it's not very good. It's very sweet. And how old were you? I don't know, maybe 15, 16. But having a little Manashevitz

and listening to Millie Jackson or the Pointer Sisters. My mother's music was very rooted in womanhood. My grandmother's music was very rooted in Jehovah God. And my music was rooted in like verses hip-hop. Hip-hop. Storytelling. Nikki Giovanni, she opened a door.

I've never turned back. Our guest today is Grammy Award-winning artist Jill Scott. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Let's get back to my conversation with Grammy Award. winning singer and actress Jill Scott.

Her latest album is, To Whom This May Concern. When did you realize you could sing? I think I always knew. It was just mine. This wonderful thing that would calm me down and give me peace and make me laugh and get the feelings out.

I'll remember when other people... Yes. Yeah. I was ninth grade. I did freshman day, and the initial audition, I had a drummer, and it was me and a drummer. We were doing theme from Mahogany. The movie, yes. And all the kids were like, oh, because it felt like that, you know.

Mr. Murphy, who gave me so much, did not like that and played the piano. And I was so disappointed because I really liked the fact that, you know, the kids I went to all-girls school. All the girls were like, yeah, that's cool. But he took it and played the piano. And I sang it from a different place. It was so sincere. I remember feeling so sincere about those words.

And then the place erupted. It was quiet first. Yeah. And I finished the line and then silent. and then that was it that was the moment like oh

you like it too hmm because before then you had been singing but just singing to yourself not in front of other people not in front of other people where would you sing

where my grandma sang in the tub and when you're cleaning you know or on my way to school or you know on the bus or at recess while playing rope, like, you know, everywhere.

There's this story that Questlove from the roots discovered you as part of the spoken word scene in Philadelphia. How do you remember it? I was in a poetry reading. I had been doing it quite a bit. I had my feelings heard, and my girlfriends were like, read poetry, and I was like, okay. So I wrote, and my girlfriends were like, you're a poet.

And I was like, I'm a poet like Nikki J. Alvartney. I'm going to do it more. So I did it more and started to make a little bit of a name for myself. And then Questlove came to a poetry reading. I think he was DJing. It might have been. I don't know. But he was there.

And he asked me if I ever wrote songs. And I was like, yeah, I do. But I didn't. I lied. What was it in you in that moment that made you say, yeah, I can? And how did that feel knowing that, oh, you might be able to enter this world? I didn't really think about the world. I just honestly enjoy what I was doing.

And you mean there could be more of that? Oh, I would like more of that. So, yeah, I went, you know, when he invited me to the studio to write a hook for them. Sure, I'll go. I had been listening to Do You Want More Faithfully. It was one of my favorite albums. It still is to this day. So, you know, this is a big deal to be asked by Quest Love, you know, but it's also like Philly.

Because this is the guy that played, you know, on the street corner. Right. You knew him at that time. I didn't know him. But you knew of him. That's what I mean. I knew of them. Yeah.

You know, but I don't necessarily assert myself in these places. It has to be organic for me, so that it's real. So you entered that studio and then you started writing. Yeah. And there's this song You Got Me was your first real song writing credit, a song that you sang for the roots. But the version that we heard was Erica Badu's version. Take us back to that moment. Did you record the track?

Yes. It all happened in one day, like one afternoon. I went to the studio, Sigma Sound, and Scott Storch and I were talking, hanging out. And is that just for folks who don't know? Scott Storch is a big-time producer now, okay? Big time. And at the time, he was playing keys for the roots. So we go into the studio and it was very simple.

He started playing a melody. I sang the words. He said, can you record that? And I said, okay, recorded it. And we went to lunch. We went to an Italian restaurant. I kind of forgot all about it. I don't know why, but I did.

You know, either they liked it or they didn't. Yes. And they liked it. So I heard through the grapevine, I was told that they liked it, that they were going to use it. Then I heard it was a single. I was like, it's a single. Oh, my God, that's crazy. I can't believe this is happening to me.

And then I was on 22nd Street. I was looking for, like, beauty supplies or walking by the beauty supply places. And I heard the song, and I was like, this is the song. And it wasn't my voice. And I was like, what is who? And then I knew who it was. You know, I listened to Lumar. I was like, that's Erica Badoo.

I made it. So you weren't feeling like, why isn't that my voice? You were feeling, oh, my gosh, Erica Badoo is singing my words. I got about 14 good seconds. Wait a minute. What happened? That's not me. And then I realized it was way bigger than that.

Like way bigger. This is a door. A door has opened. And Erica will tell you herself she doesn't sing anybody else's music. I didn't know that either. So knowing that, what does that mean to you knowing that she doesn't sing anyone else's music? But she was singing your words. I'm telling you, it's really ridiculous.

Well, you eventually ended up touring. Welcome in the morning, feeling fresh to death. I'm so blessed. Yes, yes. Well, you eventually ended up touring with the roots And then you were singing every night Every city that you went to, you got me Got a chance to learn

And almost lost that job Because I had a manager who wanted to make money And it's not that I didn't want to make money But I'm singing one hook on one song You know what I mean? How much can you really ask somebody to pay you to sing one hook And I'm getting an opportunity to see places I've never been I haven't traveled much.

I don't have any money. But now I'm getting to go from city to city and see these venues, and I'm performing in front of people, and it's a lot more than poetry readings. You know, Jill, your first album came out in 2000 when I was coming into myself as a woman. And I just want to thank you for all of what you have put out in the world. You've allowed me to see myself, and it's a beautiful thing. Isn't it? I can't even, I don't even have the words to tell you.

I'm telling you, I really love this Auntie life. Yeah. I really, wherever I can help, I am into it, wherever I can help, especially when it comes to, I've learned this, when somebody wants something from you, you give them a task. If they handle the task and do it well, then you can proceed. But other than that, you know, people talk a lot. Oh, I want to do this. I want to be this. I want to go here.

Let me see what you do. Do you do that? Because I'm sure you have a lot of young artists and singers who come to you because they want advice from you. Sometimes. That's what I do. Yeah. Let me see what you do. This is how I've learned to navigate.

What do you have them do? Whatever I need them to do. Yes. Whether it is to learn an album or listen to an album. whether it is Aretha Franklin sent me to get her two hot dogs with cooked onions and mustard.

You met her. You told her you loved her. Yes. And then she said what? Go to the corner and get me two hot dogs with cooked onions and mustard. And I went.

Yes. Okay, I think I had the number one album in the country. At that time. Yes. And I went to the corner and I got those hot dogs and I brought them back

and I, you know, just waited. I don't even think she ate them. What did that teach you? Well, I would, one, say be nicer to people, but two, you got to earn your stripes. Then I was like, oh, you know, I wanted her to be nicer to me to embrace me, to tell me that, you know, give me some advice and hold my hand a little bit, but that's not what happened. Okay. Now I am that woman to a certain degree, and now I just have a task for you. I want to see what you're going to do.

Don't waste it. Don't waste my time. Don't waste your time. It's too valuable. And I like this. This is the auntie portion. She's a little tougher. And I like that part.

This is good for me. It's good for you too if you want it. Absolutely. If you want it. I'm very grateful to be a part of so much. many people's maturation. There's nothing wrong with being mature. There is nothing wrong with growing up. Jill Scott, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for your time and for your music and your art. Thank you. You're welcome. Jill Scott's new album is called, To Whom This May Concern.

Okay, here's a setup for Bait, a new prime video series, a struggling British Pakistani actor, lands the audition of a lifetime as James Bond. Word gets out. The internet goes wild, and suddenly his life starts to resemble the very character he's auditioning to play. He's in a chase sequence, except he's not chasing a villain.

He's chasing acceptance. The series is part spy thriller, part family comedy, part psychological unraveling, and entirely unlike anything else on television right now. My guest today, Riz Ahmed, created it, wrote it, and produced it, and stars as the lead character, Shah Latif. Bate opens with Shah in a tuxedo, doing a James Bond screen test. He's debonair, commanding, in control, James Bond personified. And then he forgets his lines.

Tell me, when it's just you all alone, how do you live with yourself? Do you even know who you are? Lime? Huh? Sorry. Sorry, Helen. It's all good. It's all good. It's just...

We're on a bit of a schedule. Yeah, that's why I was thinking. Quick reset back to once I'll nail it this time. How are you blowing this audition? I know the speech. I know it. My call. You f*** up every time at the exact same moment.

Look, what is this a prank showing? We're wearing a hidden camera. That's funny. No, I just have a very particular process. I've got my head around it now. I'm ready. Sorry, I just, we have to... Yeah, well, just a minute.

Sorry, how was your weekend? That's good, thanks, that was yours. Great. Yeah, what did you do? Just, thanks, thanks, Jim. My second, stop it. Sorry. You know what?

They didn't want to see you. I had to convince them, so this is on me. I've got a confession to make. I'm lightheaded from fasting. It's the holy Muslim month. It's called Ramadan. It involves snow eating and drinking in the day. I'm like headed from a bit of a cultural understanding.

Well, I've just seen you drink apple juice. Six takes in a row. I tried. It's just a shame you didn't. No. This moment is the beginning of a wild ride as we watch this character unravel. And Riz has said, Embedded in the show is a hunger to belong.

and what it costs someone when they finally get close to the thing that they've been chasing their whole lives. Riz is an Emmy Award-winning an Oscar-nominated actor who is known for many roles, including The Night of, an HBO crime drama in which he plays a college student whose life shatters after being accused of murder. In sound of metal, he played a punk drummer grappling with sudden hearing loss. And in The Long Goodbye, he's part of a British Pakistani family whose ordinary Sunday is shattered by a far-right militia. Riz Ahmed earned an Oscar for Best Live Action Short Film. This spring, his adaptation of Shakespeare's Hamlet opens in theaters.

And Riz, welcome back to fresh air. Thank you so much for having me back. What did Bond in particular represent to you as a British Pakistani kid growing up in London? Yeah. Well, I want to deal with the first part of what you said first, which is Riz playing character playing himself. And if you don't mind, I want to say something that you said to me just before we start recording the interview.

I said, look, how did you like the show? And you said, I feel like I am Shah. You said that, Tanya, you said, I feel like, damn, I'm that person. If you don't mind me saying, so many people have been saying that. And yes, there's a lot of me and Shah, but I think actually there's a lot of Shah in all of us, more than we like to admit. And really, the show is about this feeling that life sometimes feels like one big audition.

You know, we all feel like we have to perform this version of ourselves that knows the script that, as you said, is commanding and decisive and desirable. The best public version of ourselves, we're performing that. But actually, the gap between that public self and the messy vulnerability of our private selves is often huge, you know, and that's true whether you're talking about how your life is actually going versus the Instagram post you just got up, put up, or that you saw of someone else? Or like how professional and put together you're seeming on a Zoom call

when actually you're not wearing any pants, you know, just out of the frame. And so there's this, just to answer your question, like, I feel like I'm playing, I'm trying to draw on a feeling that is personal to me, but I think it's personal to a lot of people. And then that extra component, though, of playing the man, James Bond. Like, he is considered the ultimate, you know, in every way. Absolutely, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, the show isn't really about James Bond,

but James Bond is a very important symbol because he is the ultimate symbol of success. Yes, sure, as an actor he is, you know, the pinnacle of cinematic achievement. And yet it's also just, you know, for any of us, he's this archetype of like, like I said, decisiveness, desirability, of being in control, being unflappable,

of being invulnerable. And so I wanted the character of James Bond to serve as this symbol of aspiration, this unattainable kind of self that Shah is hunting down almost. And in chasing this symbol, is he abandoning himself? Is he abandoning where he's from?

Is he abandoning his family? Has he forgotten actually who he really is? And so the show is trying to deal with that. And I think that that's something that, you know, we all kind of go through where we're often pulled between the people we were and the people we want to be. And actually, the healthy equilibrium is probably somewhere in the middle, you know. Probably that thing you want to be is like an attempt to escape yourself. And that thing you were is maybe, you know, a version of yourself you need to evolve out of.

But we often feel pulled between those two polarities. We're listening to my conversation with Riz Ahmed. He stars in the new Prime Video Series, Base. as well as Hamlet, a modern reimagining of Shakespeare's classic, set in London's South Asian community, and theaters April 10th. We'll hear more of our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air Weekend. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Let's get back to my interview with Riz Ahmed. He stars of the new prime video series Bait. He plays a British Pakistani actor, auditioning to be the next James Bond. How long did it take for you to work on this concept, this idea, and come to what is a genre-bending series?

Oh, man, I started kind of scrambling down ideas for this show in 2014. And I started doing that because, as I said, the gap between my public and private self started becoming so big and so stressful, they actually started feeling kind of hilarious. I'll give you an example. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, like the week that it got revealed that, you know, okay, I'm in the new Star Wars and they released it, released a cast photograph of us all on set. That same week, I got banned from my local supermarket for suspected shoplifting because my washing machine had broken. Only clean clothes I had were flip-flops, bright pink swim shorts, a bright green puffer jacket and a tank top.

I'm dragging a massive bag of dirty clothes around to the laundromat. I remember it's my brother's birthday. I haven't got him a cake. I go to Tesco's. I'm trying to get him a cake. They got no cake. I buy a frozen pizza with birthday candles. I'm a checkout. It seems like an insane thing I'm buying anyway. It's like, yeah, birthday candles and pizza. I'm dressed insanely. I've got this massive laundry bag. And I forgot to beep it properly on the checkout and other pizza. And it goes off and security. You're like, yeah, this person looked kind of shady. And we get into a back and forth. And I'm so frustrated at one point, I go, dude, I'm not shoplifting. I'm Star Wars, man. And they go, okay, this person is definitely crazy. And you're banned. You're never coming back here. This is an example about like the messy chaos of who we really are versus the image of success that's somewhere out there publicly.

And again, that's not just true for an actor. That's true of everyone who's posting their best selfie on Instagram, you know. So I started jotting down these little stories to try and just process them and make sense. I knew there was something in these contradictions and juxtapositions that was about me making sense of my own experience. but also that just felt kind of universal if I could just get a handle on it and so I spent many years jotting down these these ideas

and then it was when I met my co-show runner Ben Carlin we put the writers room together and all this kind of stuff we realized actually the perfect symbol for this show is James Bond and that was partly also because my name had been mentioned in relation to James Bond casting in some articles

and stuff over the years. So in the meta kind of spirit of this show, where we're trying to be as meta as possible and have fun with that, actually, that's a perfect symbol. You know, that's a perfect symbol for a character who wants to be anything other than himself, who would he want to be?

He'd want to be James Bond. I marvel at the multi-nature of this series. As I'm watching it, I'm just thinking, how did he pitch this? How does one pitch something like this and get it green-lit? because it's so well done, but it also can't really be explained in one line. It's interesting you say it can't be explained in one line because throughout the whole process,

we struggled with that, right? And then when we got to the very end of the process, we actually found a way of summing up the whole show in one word. And that word is bait. Yes, and what does that mean? I want to unpack it for a minute, right? So bait is a British slang word, which means being blatant. and in your face and attention seeking.

There we go. That's what my character is doing for much of the series. Bait is an online term about trolling or provoking people online. That's a big part of our show as well, that element. Bait in Urdu means your loyalty or your allegiance. And that is something that Shah is contending with. It's home versus ambition. East versus West.

Bait in Arabic and Hebrew means home. And so much of this show is a love letter to home. family and how far do you travel from home in order to please home or help home, you know. And then, of course, there's a big spy thriller element to our show and bait is something that's used as part of a trap. And so it's a weird thing where only in retrospect we realize like, oh my God, we accidentally stumbled on the perfect title for this that actually communicates the entire layer cake of this show. It is all those flavors and the word bait means all those things. Riz, let's talk a little bit about Shakespeare

because it wasn't really your thing as a kid until a teacher I hear introduced you to Hamlet. What do you remember about that first encounter with the play and what did it kind of unlock for you? Yeah, it's really interesting. I, like many people, felt like Shakespeare is the epitome of everything I'm on the outside of. It doesn't belong to me. It's stuffy, it's elitist.

And I've got a government-assisted place to a, private school where I felt like an outsider for many different reasons. And I was lucky enough to have an English teacher called Mr. Roseblade, who was a white Jewish middle-aged man from a different place in the UK, thought we had nothing in common. But he spoke fluent Punjabi. And he brought me Hamlet and said, you know, this thing, this story, this character, it's at the heart of the establishment that you feel so alienated from in many ways. But have a read of it. You might recognize yourself in this character and I did like millions of people have right um hamlet being a character who feels out of place hamlet himself feels like an outsider he feels like he doesn't belong

like no one understands and it really spoke to me as a teenager but more than that what i realized was hang on a minute this hamlet story set in you know medieval Denmark uh actually is is exactly like growing up in wembley this is about who you can and can't marry. This is about everyone squabbling over the family business. This is about the reality and lived experience of spirituality, ghosts and spirit possession, which is par for the course. It's, you know, it's part of our lived experience culturally. And this is also actually kind of pivots on a story point of marrying one's sister-in-law if your brother dies, which is a cultural tradition. I think it's actually a Jewish tradition and an ancient Hindu and South Asian

tradition. I've actually grown up with people who've had to do that. If their brother has died tragically, they themselves are unmarried with the consent obviously of their sister-in-law and of the conversation that they have, they go, shall we get married? It's a way of protecting the orphans and protecting the widow. So this didn't feel like this antiquated, kind of slightly out-of-touch piece to me. I was like, if you put it in my community, in my experience, is this is right now. This is completely vivid and completely urgent. And it was then at the age of 17 that I very precociously had the idea that, man,

I want to make a movie of this one day. And I want to set it in that place. And in doing so, I hope to kind of render this story more vividly in a more urgent modern way than maybe I've seen it. And make it just make it feel real. Because all those things are so real in that environment. What did you have to kind of work through to get to this adaptation? Because you could have just played Hamlet and put on a movie adaptation of Hamlet as it is.

You know, I really believe that the amount of time it took was kind of quite divinely guided in a way. And that's because I feel that this is the moment for this story. You know, it's a story. Hamlet is a story and it's a character who is grieving the illusion that the world was ever a fact. fair place. And I think that's how we're all feeling now. We're all grieving and reeling from this realization that, okay, I knew the world was unfair, but now the shameless, brazen unfairness of it is just kind of laid bare. And it's about grieving that illusion. And it's also about feeling powerless in the face of how unfair it is. And it's actually feeling kind of complicit in it

and gaslit about it. And that's what the play is about. And I think that this is when it was to be told but for us creatively the part that we were struggling to unlock is how do you not make this feel just like a Shakespeare performance and a poetry recital how do you not make this feel like a kind of self-congratulatory like actor wants to take on the classic and actually we that was the opposite of how we wanted to feel and it really took us meeting anil caria the director and it was after I collaborated with him on the short film The Long Goodbye for which he won an Oscar um that I was like, oh, I think we know how to do this. We need a director who's worked a lot in rap music videos.

We need a director who has actually can render poetry in a very raw way and give us raw action in a very poetic way. And that's what he did in that short film. And that's what he does in his films. And we connected and we had a long conversation about how this has to feel like music, you know? There's the classic line from Hamlet to be or not to be. That is the question. And in your version, Hamlet delivers this famous solitically, basically speeding through the rain at 100 miles an hour.

And I want to play a little bit of it. Let's listen. To be or not to be? That is the question. Whether it's nobler in the mind to suffer, this slings. and arrows of outrageous fortune or to take arms against the sea of troubles. But by opposing end them to die, to sleep. No more, or by asleep to say we end the hot take a thousand natural shops that flesh is

there to the consummation devoutly to be wished to die, to sleep, to sleep for a chance to dream. That is my guest, Riz Ahmed, in his latest film adaptation of Hamlet. And Riz, you've talked about this before, but for most of us, we're kind of taught that this speech is about suicide. Basically, Hamlet is weighing whether life is worth living. And you came to believe something entirely different is happening in those lines. What do you think Hamlet is actually asking? Yeah, I don't think it's about suicide at all. It's about fighting back against.

depression, even if you know you will lose everything, possibly even your life. It's actually, it's very clear in black and white in the text, the active verb here is about taking, it's about to take up arms. You know, what he's saying is there's two choices. You can carry on being, and it's very interesting, he says, be, not living, just be, you can exist, and you can exist and you can exist and just suffer all the oppression. and all the unfairness and all the injustice of the world and all the insults that life throws at you, or you can fight back.

But fighting back might mean you will no longer be. So it's really about whether we are willing to pay the price of true resistance, you know. And it's actually a very, very radical speech. It's very confronting. it's tackling a taboo subject, really. You know, the idea of taking up arms and resisting oppression and the powers that be.

It's a dangerous idea, actually. You can get you arrested. You discuss that openly to this day. I mean, Shakespeare was a wordsmith. He's working in verse and rhythm. And I'm thinking about your background in rap and your politically charged album. And I'm wondering,

did that hip-hop instinct shape at all how you heard and delivered? these lines. Yeah, very, very much so. Very much so. Here's my take on it. A lot of people find a block with Shakespeare because they find it difficult to understand what the words mean.

I totally get it. I often feel the same way. Here's a thing. People in Shakespeare's day themselves did not speak like that. They didn't say that. Shakespeare made up like between 3 and 5,000 new words. I think there's some estimates. The word eyeball is a word that he made up.

You imagine hearing that for the first time? A what ball? An eye, what? He made that up. And one thing that he played with all the time was rhythm. Rhythm, rhythm, rhythm, rhythm. And so in the same way that when I listen to some of my favorite rappers, new songs, I don't know what they say the first time around,

but I am totally wrapped. I'm totally leaning in. I'm engaged. I feel it emotionally. it's the same way. Your first experience of this thing is supposed to be like music. You didn't catch all of the words,

but that word there felt weird enough to make you sit up. And what you're supposed to do is receive an electric charge of rhythm and melody and musicality, just like rap music. But that's not the actual experience of these plays.

So I wish more people spoke about Shakespeare in that way, because to me it is much more like music than it is like, you know, an English class. Did you come to this understanding as that 17-year-old whose teacher introduced you? Did you see that connection? Because you were kind of deep in rap at that moment, that time.

Yeah, it's such an interesting connection to make. You know, I think it's an inevitable one to make, really. You know, if you're interested in poetry, if you're interested in lyricism, if you're interested in rhythm, like Shakespeare's doing that. He's playing in all those arenas. And so it was clear to me very early on, but Something it isn't also lost on me is at the same time I was studying under Rob Claire and doing a master's in classical acting,

which is essentially at Masters and just in Shakespeare performance. That's when I started on the rap battle circuit in London and things like jump off and battle scars and Bombay Bronx and, you know, competing in all these championships. And so it did somehow, in my mind, feel like it's one thing. As you've mentioned, Riz, you grew up in Wembley in northwest London. The son of Pakistani parents who immigrated in the 1970s. Take me back to when you were a teenage Riz and you were DJing and rapping.

You started on pirate radio. How did you discover pirate radio? So I grew up in the, you know, in the mid-90s in the UK. I grew up in Wembley. Wembley is both, you know, the site of England's greatest triumph in the 1996 World Cup and also in the shadow of that stadium I'd go every Sunday to Wembley Market which is where you'd buy the Chinese Spring Roll

and the immigrant kind of food stalls and the fake designer clothes that we'd buy and sell over there you know amongst that kind of working class and immigrant community and pirate radio station culture was just everywhere, you know. Yes, you'd have the BBC radio stations and the other London stations but in between all those airwaves,

The one, there's all the FM frequencies that were not spoken for, you'd hear faint crackle and then the voice of emcees or microphones that were broadcasting from the roofs of the housing projects locally. And that's pirate radio culture. So it was there that I was kind of exposed more and more to drum and bass in garage, particularly when I was too young to actually go to the raves themselves. As soon as I was old as I was old enough to kind of try and hack off whatever faint facial hair I had. and try and like grow it back thicker. I, you know, I was at the raves themselves. And, you know, I just love the music. I love the specificity of London's musical subculture.

And the UK, I think, does that so well, you know, because of the clash and the mix of different cultures and different sounds and influences. So, yeah, I was exposed to it. And then I started doing it myself, both at raves and on pirate radio. And I remember when I went to Oxford and I got in there, I felt like I'd lost something. I'd lost this thing that I loved. And so I was eager to kind of keep it going.

And that's when I started promoting my own club nights. And it became a really invaluable place where every week without fail, I could hold my craft. I could try out new lyrics. I could gain confidence as a performer. And I think it helped me not just as an MC, but as an actor. Well, Riz, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

and thank you for the wonderful conversation. Riz Ahmed stars in a reimagining of Hamlet, which opens in theaters in April, and the new Prime video series, Bate. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Freshier's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.