Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Duolingo

Episode Date: August 19, 2025

Is it a free language learning app... or a feathered dictator in your pocket? In this episode, Amanda and Chelsea are joined by Zaria Parvez (@zariaparvez), the social media mastermind behind that chaotic green owl, to unpack the potentially culty world of Duolingo. We’re talking guilt-trippy push notifications, leaderboard anxiety, and the question on everyone’s mind: why does Duo feel more like a clingy ex than a study buddy? Whether you're on a 1-day streak or a 1,000-day emotional journey, this one’s for you. Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles.  Thank you to our sponsors! Head to ⁠https://www.squarespace.com/CULT⁠ to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code CULT Get this new customer offer and your 3-month Unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at https://MINTMOBILE.com/cult Right now save 20% on your FIRST order and get a free cat toy at https://PrettyLitter.com/CULT Please consider donating to those affected by the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Team SLAC are donating to the PCRF, a nonprofit organization providing vital medical care, food, and humanitarian aid to children and families in need. The Big Magical Cult Show is coming to Just For Laughs Toronto on September 27th. Get your tickets before they sell out!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey there, it's Heather McDonnell from JuicySoup, and I have the juiciest of them all on Audible. Romance has always been a crowd-placing genre on their platform, and there's more to imagine when you listen to their expansive collection. They have audiobooks to satisfy every side of you. I'm talking about the Romantasy genre, which is huge on book talk right now, with authors like Sarah J. Mass and Devney Perry. Get your first great love story for free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at

Audible.com. Hey listeners, it's your host Amanda here with an invitation specifically for my listeners who will be in or around the Toronto area on September 27. I am downright giddy to share that I will be bringing my book tour slash live podcast variety show extravaganza to Toronto for one night only as a part of the Just for Laughs comedy festival. As I mentioned, it's on September 27th. Tickets are available now at Amanda Montel. The show is called The Big Magical Cult Show. And this is not a normal book tour or live podcast show. There's going to be drag, burlesque, a PowerPoint presentation on the cult of celebrity worship and parasocial relationships.

There's going to be a book signing, a meet and greet, special surprise guests, and I would absolutely love it if you would join me. Tickets are available now at Amanda Montpel.com slash events. Hope to see you, September 27th at the Big Magical Colts. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. We have to talk about the push notifications and the streaks.

Duolingo users are obsessed with their streaks. I opened my Duolingo app a few minutes before jumping on. And Duo had this little message and they were like, am I? dreaming. Chelsea, are you back? Stop. If we personalize it, if we are pushy and we're passive-aggressive, which is not what normal push-unifications did at the time, then people will come back because it's personal. It feels like a personal attack.

I honestly felt like duo loved me, but I also did feel a little sense of shame associated with that. This is Sounds Like a Cults, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host, Amanda Montel, author of some books. language titled Word Slut and Cultish. And I'm your co-host Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer and a lifelong student of pop culture sociology. Every week on the show, we discuss a different zeitgeisty group that puts the cult in culture, from sleepaway camp to incels, to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really?

Which of our three cult categories does it fall into? Live Your Life, a Watcher Back, or Get the Fuck Out. After all, these days in 2025, cultish influence falls along a continuum. And the word cult can mean a lot of different things. Obviously, it can mean something very sinister when describing destructive groups like Nexium or QAnon. Sometimes, though, it's just used to sort of judge groups

that we don't agree with. Obviously, sometimes it's just used as a joke. Like if someone's really into trade, Joe's cookie butter, we're like, ha ha, you're so obsessed, you're in a cult. And then sometimes that jokey aspect of being an occult actually starts to cross a line. That is what this show is all about. Exploring and poking a little bit of fun at how cultish influence for better and for worse shows up in what we think is the most cultish era of all time, even sometimes in places that you might not think to look. Like a promise of self-improvement with just enough consumerist chaos to

make you fear the green owl. Welcome to the cult of dual lingo. The language app turned identity crisis where users don't just learn Spanish. They become the kind of person who tracks their streak like a vital sign. Whether you're a super subscriber or fluent in cling yang, for no reason, you, it's changing you. One push notification at a time. Wait, does Duolingo have Klingon? That's kind of lit. You have to say it with the accent. I don't know. I'm not a Trekkie. I'm more of a Lord of the Rings girly, as we know. I'm not yet. Okay, but you're pulling it off. Chelsea, we should talk about it. Let us defend for a quick second why we wanted to do this episode. Okay? We have gotten so many requests for it. Listen to this recent email that we got from

a listener named Victoria. This was from January of this year. Hi, culties. Yesterday, the Duolingo app had maintenance issues, and let me tell you, people lost their mind about getting kicked out of family plans or potentially losing their streaks. As I explained the system of leagues, streak freezes, double and triple points, et cetera, to my non-user friend, I realized how great a topic it would be for Sounds Like a Colt. Duolingo is unfortunately very, effective in keeping you engaged in their cult. Even letting cult members terrorize you to do your lessons called friend's streaks. Would love to hear your take on it. Love the show. And thank you. Best Victoria. I was like, yes. All right. It's a sign. It's a push notification from the Great Beyond.

Yep. What is your relationship to do Olingo, Chelsea? I'm casually on the app here and there. I will say I have a few streaks in a few different languages. But my biggest gripe with Duolingo is that it doesn't really teach you fluency in any language because some of the sentence structures are just totally grammatically incorrect and they don't make sense. Like, I ate ball. When would I ever say that?

I would never say I ate ball, okay? Oh, that's very suggestive. I don't know. My, explicit. But I really have dreams of being a polyglot, And so I have streaks in French, Spanish, Haitian Creel, and Portuguese, but only because I went to Brazil at the top of the year for a month for a show. And I needed to know a little, little Portuguese. So I was like, oh my God. Yeah. Me and my husband were like, let's get on duolingo. Let's try to learn

Portuguese. We ended up only like speaking Spanish in Brazil to communicate. Our Portuguese is trash. Well, yeah. I mean, I'm with you. Like, obviously language is like my big. passion and lifeblood in the whole wide world. And I love learning foreign languages, not even to use them, like, just because I think it's good for your mind and it allows you to, like, live an alternate life, you know, when you, like, can learn a new language. But it was always pretty clear to me that Duolingo was just a language learning themed iPhone game.

Yes. The way that, like, hinge is just a dating themed iPhone game. It's like not actually there to help you do the thing. It's purporting. It's literally just there to keep you on the app like every other app, which is, I guess, a little dishonest, but not necessarily culty. So it didn't occur to me to cover this episode ever until we just started getting so many requests because the shaming and the ritual and the mascot of the Duolingo owl, it's so obvious

that behind the scenes, the people who work at Duolingo are trying to build a culture that's alluring and addictive and comes with exit costs. And I'm like, whoa, this is actually a great topic. And I am so curious to talk to our guest later who actually works at Duolingo. She's a higher up on Duo's social media team. And I feel like talking to her will really help us determine whether duo is just to live your life or bordering moron watcherback or even get the fuck out. I don't know. You can make a cult out of anything these days. You really could. And I mean, to add to it a little bit, and we'll jump into this a little bit later, but it's because of all the things associated with Duolingo, because it's not just the app, just as you're saying. It's the TikTok account associated with

the app. It's the added learning, the podcast that is associated with the app, which I live for the podcast. It's like real life situational stuff and they'll say it in English and then they'll also say it in the other language. Like, I don't know. I'm not in the cult, but I am cult adjacent to the cult of duo lingo. Okay, word. All right. So that's already a green flag that you can in theory just dip a toe in. Yes. But I know a lot of people who have both feet, all 10 talents. They're need deep. How many talents does an owl have? Yeah, knee deep in this world and could not give up their streak unless they were without psychological misery. I'll say that. Let's get a little bit into the origin story of Duolingo because some might be wondering how the fuck could a

language learning app be classified as a cult. So Duolingo started back. So Duolingo started back. back in 2009. It was a wild idea concocted up in a Carnegie Mellon lab. In Pittsburgh, the app was co-founded by a computer scientist named Louis von App. And fun fact, he was a guy who also co-founded the CAPTCHA. You know that little like annoying security thing where you have to like type in whatever some letters to prove that you're human? This fucking guy. Anyways, he founded duo lingo with a student of his named Severn Hacker. And if that is not a super villain name, it's giving Severus Snape. His last name's literally hacker. He's trying to hack into people's brains and souls. And listen, the original goal wasn't just to teach languages. It was actually

to crowdsource translations of the entire internet, which is cool, lofty, but okay, by the time Duolingo launched publicly in 2012, it had seriously gamified language lessons. By the By then this idea of streaks was introduced. You know how like on the Strava app for runners, you don't want to like break your running streak and like your friends can cheer you on? They were kind of doing that same thing for language learning. And all the while you had a little mascot, this cartoon owl cheering you on or threatening you if you didn't keep up with your lessons.

And these lessons honestly didn't feel like grammar drills so much as they actually felt like a little break for your brain, a little respite, a little escapism. Eventually the app shifted away from translation and leaned into education hard, this mission to spread multilingualism around the world. And it rolled out things like stories, podcasts, even its own English proficiency exam. So the expansion was expansioning and it worked. Now with over 80 million users, a public stock offering and new courses in math, music, and literacy. Duo Lingo's not just an app. It's a movement, nay, a lifestyle.

One that's powered by a Lulgreen out, whose equal parts cheerleader and unhinged personal trainer. How does Duo make you feel when you log on to the app? Listen, the fact that Duo knows my name, it makes me feel a sense of community. It makes me feel a sense of they, Duo. Right. Don't gender the owl. I'm not going to gender duo. Duo has a responsibility to make sure that I have endless education. And I don't know. I kind of live for that. Totally. It's like when

we recorded our Lubu episode, you were talking about how you had a Tomogachi as a kid. But you are almost duos Tomogachi. He has to keep your mind alive. They keep me fed with knowledge. Duo transcends anything earthly. He's above. Coltis, just get ready because you're going to learn so much more about how the duolingo mascot came to be from our guest. It's fascinating. Some people might still be unconvinced that duolingo could resemble a cult. But Chelsea, I feel like you could help with some of this analysis, just out of the gate. Because when you start picking duolingo apart, you're like, oh, it's cold. year than it seems. So with Duolingo, the devotion is real. People who have kept their Duolingo

streaks going for over thousands of days is like a sacred ritual. My mother-in-law, my mother-in-law has like a very, very long Duolingo Spanish streak, which I think is just insane. But kudos to her. Good for her. Honestly, like whatever's keeping people off Instagram, in my opinion, or like, I don't No. As long as they're not on like an in-cell forum, I'm starting to feel like maybe it's fine. You're right. But fanatical nonetheless. I mean, does she get outside? Oh, yeah. She's, oh my God. So active. We're going to talk about rituals a little later, but it has become super ritualistic for her. So like at the top of the day, she does duolingo. It's become as

much a part of her morning as coffee or brushing her teeth. But she's extremely like active outside and does all the things. And while there isn't a huge benefit, similar to your morning crossword puzzle. I just think it's a great way to keep her mind active, but I fully agree with you. It's not a language app, but it's language themed. It's language themed. It's language coded. It's language coded. Yes. Yes. That is so funny. It's like literally just a language coded iPhone game. And if people could think of it that way, then I think maybe that would peel back the veil a little bit on the cult. Yeah, if that makes sense. And I guess that's what this whole episode is attempting to do. Absolutely. One of the most fascinating parts of Duell's culty energy is the way that

it fosters a sense of community through competition. There are ledger boards that you can build with strangers on the internet, but also close friends and family where you can kind of nudge each other where if you see someone that's a part of your community that you've built missed a day. So it's not just dual that's kind of antagonizing you to jump on the app, but it's people that you actually know and are in community with that's like, hey, you missed a day. Get on your Zoom. You're not on your Zoom. Oh, God. We Americans, we thrive on shame. We do. We live for shame. There's something to these word games adopting the model of cult fitness. You know, it feels like Peloton for people who want to sit down. Yeah. People are all

also super addicted to whirdle. Girl, I, are you into it? Well, no. So, okay, you got to understand. These things that we did to keep ourselves busy initially during COVID, all were like hand in hand. Like I said, it was community. So everyone was on dualingo at the same time. Everyone was doing Wordle at the same damn time.

So I may have dipped my toe into the New York Times Wordle and the app of Wordle. No, same. You're absolutely right. That's true. And, you know, we'll talk about this a little later in the interview, but during times when you can't see your family or you're really busy and you're not connecting with your friends as much, apps like Duolingo allow you to stay connected, which again has literally nothing to do with language learning and everything to do with these other things that attract people to culty groups for better and for worse, like a desire for connection, a desire for belonging, a desire to. to feel like you're doing something good for your mind, for your soul. And that is what duolingo is. The question is, has it gotten a little too cultish for comfort? So to help determine that, we are thrilled to introduce our guest. But not until after a break where we're going to hear from some of our cult followed sponsors that make the show possible.

Hello, you guys, it's Heather McDonald, and I have a juicy scoop for you on Audub. I've been loving their romance collection. They are a leading creator and provider of premium audio storytelling and they've got this down. Romance fans are among their most engaged and voracious listeners. So there is nothing guilty about this pleasure. There's more to imagine when you listen and they have audiobooks to satisfy every side of you. Audible has modern rom-coms by Lily Chew and Allie Hazelwood and titles from the Romanty genre that is going crazy right now, like the ones taking over book talk. We're talking about authors like Devney Perry and Sarah J. Mass. Plus, you can get into classic regency favorites like

Pride and Prejudice or all the really steamy stuff. I mean, imagine a dalliance with a Duke or a sexy billionaire. You can find a book boyfriend in the city on a hockey rink or find love in another realm with dragons. When it comes to what romance you're into, you can't be pinned down. So here's your invitation to have it all. Get your first great love story for free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com. Get to Toronto's main venues like Budweiser Stage and the new Roger Stadium with Go Transit. Thanks to Go Transit's special online e-ticket fairs, a $10 one-day weekend pass offers unlimited travel on any weekend day or holiday anywhere along the Go network.

And the weekday group passes offer the same weekday travel flexibility across the network, starting at $30 for two people and up to $60 for a group of five. Buy your online GoPASS ahead of the show at go-transit.com slash tickets. Joining us today is none other than Zarya Parvez, the mastermind behind Duolingo's wildly viral social media presence as the global social media manager. Can you believe it? She helped transform Duo from a sweet little study buddy into a full-blown cultural icon and arguably one of the cultiest mascots in the Zyte. guide geist today. Zaria, welcome to Sounds Like a Colt. Thank you for having me. Love being part of a cult. What do you like ever get a duolingo tattoo? That just came to me. That's like I think

the epitome of like what every brand person wants. You know, I unfortunately cannot commit to anything because having something on my body forever. I don't know. I just can't. Valid. That's real. But I love a cult. So I don't know, maybe. Yeah, there are other ways. And if it gets really bad, then you'll have something permanent on your body whether you want it or not. Yeah, exactly. Just kidding. Hopefully Duo Lingo doesn't get there, but I guess you're in the driver's seat. So it's really up to you.

I do have to say, I open my Duolingo app a few minutes before jumping on. And Duo had this little message and they were like, am I dreaming? Chelsea, are you back? Stop. It was funny. Stop. Duo loves me. We have a person.

no relationship. Oh, to me that sounded shady. Yeah, that's how I processed that. So nice of you to show up. I feel like that was probably what they were going after. But I'm so happy Chelsea, you saw it as lovely and nice. I'm going to give them that feedback. I did. This is how you know I'm susceptible to a coach. You're like, duo is love bombing me again. Who writes that copies, Aria? So we have a product team that actually does a push notification. So they've been doing unhinged unifications even before I like joined and then they like kind of took over the app in different touchpoints especially when people fall off and we resurrect a user which is what you literally call it resurrection yeah yeah yeah you're a resurrected user thank you Josh Robb the polyglot

redeemer oh my god resurrected that is over the top of it's a cold it's a cold oh I know the listeners have been begging for you to reveal what is wrong with them. Okay, wow, I am so fucking pumped to get into it. But first, Zarya, could you give a little bit of background? How are you recruited not only into this cult as a member, but as like, low-key, inner circle? Okay, so I graduated university in 2020 for University of Oregon and I needed a job. So my goal in life is to retire. Like, I've always just, I hate the fact that we have to work. Obviously, we're all there. And I was like, because I started advertising, you could either go into like advertising agencies and deal with a big grind, all of that, or you can move to Pittsburgh to a random

startup that has some brand love and crews and work a nine to five. So as an exhausted 21 year old, I was like, I need to figure out what's conducive for lifestyle. And that's honestly why I applied to duo. So duelingo was actually the only job I applied to out of college. And they gave me a job and I was like, great. And like, the main reason was just, I loved being an NPC. really wanted to be in a spot where I could just like cook in a back corner and nobody would tell me I couldn't or could do things. Like it would just be open. So I felt like I had that. And it was like enough of a startup at the time that there was just space and the community was crazy. Like I knew that it was like a recipe for success because people are already obsessed. I just had to bring that to social

essentially. You mean the community of users. Yeah. People are obsessed with their streaks. They're always making fan art. If you type in Lily fan art, you're going to get some weird shit. And so there's a lot of things that are just like, people were already invigorated. I just had to bring that energy over social. Oh my God. What is the vibe at Duolingo, like on the team? Is everybody like, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. We're like, what?

It's pretty funny. So I was the first Gen Z hire. So our team was like, me, myself and I in the beginning. I was the only social person. Pretty much, like, each day was like, this is what it's like. Like, Gen Z is like, this is what the internet can be. And since then, now my social team has about four people. And it's pretty interesting.

social team runs pretty young Gen Z, while like, not the elders, but like the other part of the team is working on other stuff and tend to have like more experience than other. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, they do stuff outside of social. It's just as important for the brand. But yes, everyone is always up to shit. You guys only see the approved ideas.

And I wish there was a day where I could do a PowerPoint of all the rejected ideas. And those are like fucking spicy. And the ideas are basically to get people hype as fuck about duolingo. learning language yep exactly well chelsea i don't think it's to get people hype as fuck about learning language i think it's to get people hype as fuck about duolingo yeah okay that's fair you know what i'm saying the cover up is where mission driven brand and we're helping you teach a language so therefore we have the agency to do whatever the fuck we want i live for this i'm so excited you're here and that you're down to clown with us about this i mean it's crazy i think the whole thing is like

satire, right? Like the fact that we're able to do all of this with this big green owl and like just the origin stories of it is also just crazy. My CEO told us like he did not believe in TikTok at the time. He's like, I don't know if there's potential here. We don't have like resources. So I was like, there's a crusty owl suit that HR uses for like team events. If I can think of something, can I just create it within my own self and post it? They were like, okay, sure. And that took off. It was just pretty much a duo just making fun of the internet. And then people becoming obsessed with him as like a creator. influencer because it was satire because it's fucking ridiculous to see a crusty owl like do the trends that we do.

That's interesting. I am making a discovery right now because before I thought that duo was our charismatic cult leader. But now with further research, Zaria, you are the culty charismatic leader. You took the Krusty Owl out of the office, made them twerk on line. You are the mastermind. You're the cult leader. That is the biggest honor and greatest title. Anyone has ever given me?

Write about me in your next book, girl. Coltish, I'm mean to that. That is a dream. You know what? Someone is going to write the Duolingo biopic expose. There's too many on Steve Jobs. Right. We need to talk about duo.

He's not just a mascot anymore. He's a full-blown icon. And there's something strangely characterized. charismatic about his wide-eyed green owl that has people projecting all kinds of meaning onto him. So was duel the owl always the goal to push this doctrine of language? Okay, I mean yes and no. The origin stories of duo, duo is green because one of our co-founders hates the color green, and they made him green just to troll him.

He existed because, like, people love learning languages from, like, a person versus a computer. So they were like, okay, if we bring duo in, bring the character in. But there was no desire to make duo the face of our marketing. Like that was, I wish I could be like I envisioned it and saw it. Like, it was just a lot of testing and learning as we were going. But they did see the value in having a character teach a language and make it more fun and gamified. But it wasn't like duo is going to be our icon in five years once this new platform comes out and all this. That makes complete sense to me.

I would say, though, because Rosetta Stone doesn't hit the same because it does not have a cult leader. We need someone to be able to relate to. Well, look, if you go into a church, like a beautiful Catholic church surrounded by stained glass, and there are saints and apostles and Jesus is there on his cross and he's got his abs. I think Catholicism hits the way that duolingo hits because of the imagery, okay, because of the characters. When you go into that church, for me, I don't want to learn about religion at all. I guess. No, I want to learn about it, but whatever. You know what I'm saying? I am not going to want to believe the same unless there is like imagery, unless there are faces. The characters bring it to life. And when you have this opportunistically created character that was not masterminded from the start,

but that was like hitting in a way and like clearly resonating with the community, as you say, of course you're going to want to run with that, even if it started as a joke or an accident or whatever. 100%. And, like, they developed, like, an entire cast of characters and they had a whole, like, studios and content team that, like, worked on this entire cast now. And, like, those are our next goals. Like, how do you make Lily, the Emo Girl popular? How do you build that duo love across this world and lore build and make sitcoms and, like, all this stuff within these characters? So you're on to something. No, it's a religion. Like, it is. They are the 12 disciples. That's our next campaign. Thank you. Oh, you're so gum. I'll like invoice you later.

So speaking earlier about the fandom associated with duo, specifically, like, tattoos, fan accounts, and memes. What is it like watching a language learning app inspired that type of devotion? It's wild, dude. Like, I actually never thought it would get to this point. And I think what's crazy about it is, like, the tension of it. I feel like if we were another brand doing this, it might be kind of expected because big brands have big marketing budgets and all these things. But I think the fact that it is an education app doing this stuff, that tension makes it like, holy shit. And then people get excited about it.

Seeing that come to light, it's just so freaking human, you know? Like, I always laugh how humans love fireworks and bright lights. Like, it's just so stupid. We're so stupid. I was joking about this too. Right. It's crazy. We're all like, wow.

And like, what? I know. And it's a same, I feel like it's the same way. Like it's like that tension is such a human thing to be obsessed with. We're complex beings, but when it comes to like just situational irony, we're like, oh my God, that's hilarious. And I think, I think that's the beauty of it. It is.

Duolingo is a cult of situational irony. Like, that is its voice. It's like David Berg of the children of God's whole voice was talking about Jesus in a way that was like crass and full of cursing. And people found that tension. really compelling and radical and subversive, it was abusive and fucked. But like, you stripped away all of that. The juxtaposition of two contrasting tones, like, people were vibing with it. You're so right about that. And I bet too, it immediately feels more trustworthy and more grassroots.

Like, we're all in on the joke that it's an education app and not like Nike. A hundred percent. And I feel like because we're also such a mission. driven brand of like make education accessible. People are like, yeah, they're allowed to be crazy. They're doing it. Like that I think also has something to do with it of like Gen Z wanting good brands. Yeah. Actually, I am curious like obviously more sinister cults start as mission driven. You said it. I didn't say it. And like spreading multilingualism around the world feels like an amazing mission for a cult. You know, it's like some are about poverty. Some are are about spiritual transcendence.

This one is about multilingualism. And look, I'm here for it. How do you think that missional aspect keeps people in? I feel like it makes you feel good about yourself. Like, that's literally what it is. Yeah, I'm stalking due on TikTok, but also like it's a language learning app. So I might be learning something by watching this content and scrolling. Oh, I'm learning.

I learned a language. Like those small things of like your streak, gamifying it. It feels like you're productively using your time. So you're like, okay, I'll scroll a little bit more. this channel. I'll keep going like it's a language learning app. Yes. Oh my God. It is a way to feel productive and good about yourself. But like we have to talk about the push notifications and the streaks and the whatnot because duolinger users are obsessed with their streaks in a way that completely transcends anything having to do with mastering vocabulary and grammar. Some people

have literal years of uninterrupted practice. What is it about the streak system? that you think taps into people's psyche so deeply. And can you spill a little tea about how the push notification magic perpetuates that cycle? Yeah, 100%. I mean, it's literally based off of Gameafide apps. So we have these hooks and these things like the streak to keep you coming back the same way like Candy Crush does or like Clash of Clown. And so they've managed to put those mechanisms in that literally get you addicted to it.

And like you want to see your streak go up. And all of a sudden, if you made somebody disappointed and they put your name in and insert, like, insert username here and it says, Chelsea, you're like, fuck, they know about me. And that's like the push notifications. They notice a product team started doing that as a test. And then they saw resurrection increase a lot. And they were like, wait a minute. If we personalize it, if we are pushy and we're passive aggressive, which is not what normal push on vacations did at the time, then people will come back. Because it's personal.

It feels like a personal attack. And now you're saying I'm not productive and you're saying I'm not learning and I'm trying to be a good person and I'm trying to learn. So here I am. I'm going to go back and just do it. And it's only five minutes a day. It'll totally be fine. And it's like all these things that are just like, humans love fireworks. Like it goes back to that. Like we're just like kind of predictable in a lot of ways. And you can gamify that and make that into a productive business. Yeah. Chelsea, how did you how did you feel today when you like were resurrected? I honestly felt like duo loved me, but I also did feel a little sense of shame associated with that. And I feel like, I feel like, like there's a little sunk cost fallacy, like sprinkled into that, which is obviously we know one of the main tenets of many of the cults that we talk about. But it is that idea that you have invested so much time. And so you decide, okay, I'm going to keep investing this time. And dang, if I miss one day, I'm going to mess up my streak.

I'm going to not learn this language. So. And you can think the investment is for you. But it's equally, if not more, for duolingo. I mean, it is like a business at the end of the day. But I do wonder, you know, we're talking a little bit about the mission aspect. We're talking about shame. We're talking about making you feel a little love bombed.

My PR manager is going to love this. Oh. She's like, none of the talking points, but I'm like, it's fine. You know what? The brands that get it, get it. I'll tell you right now, Peloton loved our Peloton episode. I was like, really? Good.

Yeah. Green flag? Um, but obviously we're being cheeky and yet there is something very real about the fact that Duolingo has become a ritual for people and a real like moment in their everyday lives. Could you talk about how that ritual aspect might resemble even prayer for people? Like how do you see it from your perspective? Yeah, I think it's that five minutes of screen time that just makes you feel better about yourself.

Playing into that, because, like, how many times are we hearing about screen time and mental health and we're wasting our time on social and we're doing all this? Like, I think it comes back to, like, I might not have control over anything in my life, but at least I can use these five minutes to be productive and hope it'll help me grow or help me be better. I can say, you know what? I learned a bit of a language today. It's like kind of like working out in a way, too. Like, it's a way to control, like, how you feel about yourself. And if it's from, like, a cute guy, like the fucking owl's so cute. I work there and I'm not just saying like sometimes I get so annoyed but you just can't stop looking at it.

And I think that's actually why it has even a bigger appeal than our other cast of characters because it's just like a freaking cute owl. And so when you just combine these things together, it just makes you feel like you're doing something good for the world in a way as like I'm learning a language so I can communicate with others and be empathetic and meet them where they're at versus them having to meet me where I'm at. There's just so much propaganda you can add to it, you know? Like it just can keep going. Thank you for saying that. I know. I'm like, I feel like I'm a propaganda machine right now. The self-awareness is admirable. Like, we stand.

Yeah, there you go. So, Zaria, one of the most fascinating parts of Duolingo's culty energy is the way it builds community, which is a little about what you were talking about just a second ago, through control, through competition. Between the XP, racist, ledger boards, and public shame for falling behind, there is a definite sense of social pressure built into the plight. In what ways does the app create a sense of community or even competition that keeps people coming back? Yeah, I think it's definitely like the leaderboards.

They have that sense of like, where are you placed on that? Then there's like the friend streak where you can nudge a friend. Even this whole concept of people blocking their boyfriend everywhere, including Duolingo, there's actually like these parts of the app that feel very community driven. It's a thing. I didn't know that. And they were like, I blocked him everywhere. Like that is common.

Like you will see those tweets often. And then we've linked it with our social presence. So now there's like the community of the app that's like obsessed of the app. And there's a community that's obsessed with a bird. And we kind of like keep them in cahoots with each other. So in February, we actually killed duo. And we made this huge campaign over the death of duo. And it like blew up in a lot of places.

But that was connected to the actual like app icon that showed like a dead duo with like exes on his eyes. So we were like bridging these two worlds together. We're like honestly like people on social the most they talk about us is either they hate language learning and they hate their Spanish teacher. They think that we're stupid or like they actually accidentally tag us as duolipa. Like that that is the most sentiment we get. Like they don't like they don't hear about like being empathetic learners. While like people in the app probably care a little bit more about that. So like we try to bring these worlds together through these different communities and like find links with friends streak, but also like our social commenting and how we

comment on things and the campaigns we do. Is there like a duolingo cult follower type or multiple types. Like, who are these people? You know, it's like the QAnon yoga moms. And you're like, yeah, we can break that down. We've done episodes recently on like plant parents and like horse girls. Like there are just certain holts where you're like, no wonder you were into this. Is there a duo lingo profile? Oh my God. That's actually such a good thought exercise. I feel like it's weird because it's across a lot of people. So you have like the old grandpas that literally think they're making a bird is sad. Like they actually think there's a live bird. They have to like recover it. They're just like bird watching men. Literally. But like actually. Then there's people who think it's like a

dinosaur and don't get why the kids are into it these days. And then there's like the little like teenage boys that you're like, I feel weird that I'm even talking to you on social, but here we are. And it's like the obsession. We went to VidCon and they had us as featured creator and do I was like the first mascot to do that. And I was like, this is the first time we're going to meet our fans in real life. What is it? And I was like, I'm a fucking creep. They're all. like teenagers obsessed and I was like wow this is who our audiences but it's like actually a ton of like middle schoolers that are obsessed with the brand and they'll still be like hate your app but love duo hate learning a language but just love your content so it's like two different worlds but there

should be an archetype I just don't know what it is yet that's so interesting so much about duolingo has again very little to do with like language learning yeah it's like an immersive experience yeah there's so many levels of it even now like they're not just being language learning like they literally have chest out and then they had math and then they have music and then they used to have like du lingua bc for kids like it's like how do we like take over education and make it a cult but make it fun no honestly like starting with the youth is a very effective cult tactic wow i don't even know i was a cult leader oh my god yay you you you i could be anyone we're so proud of you thank you thank you doolingo's technically tech company right

Yeah, we are. So at all of these tech companies, there have to be internal conversations about the ethics of it. But ultimately, like, this is America, baby. Like, we're in the attention economy. If eyeballs and streaks and fanaticism and shame is profitable, what incentive is there to roll it back? 100%. And, like, I remember when we first started doing it, there were people being like, your language learning app, get your butt off the Super Bowl. Like, why is duo's butt on this stage?

Or like, why is this stuff happening? And I remember, they're like, it works. Like, we don't know what to tell you. Like every time there's a viral TikTok video, we're getting new users. So, like, keep shaking that ass mascot. Like, I don't know. Like, part of it is it does work. And there's the level of brand safety, too, right?

Of, like, how far do you push it? Like, where is the line? And I think the mantra our team's kind of taken is, like, you don't know where the line is unless you cross it sometimes. And that has allowed us to understand, like, in this world of hyper consumerism and late stage capitalism, these are the lines that a social media owl star can take. And so it's been a really weird ride, too. It's just weird because you're like, you just don't expect the things.

people to be okay with are okay with or the things they're not okay with not be okay with. Oh, that is such a good point. Like what a morally chaotic time. I mean, it is wild to have my like paranoias confirmed that you really can't make a cult out of anything these days. There you go. It's true. Even an innocent language learning app with a wee owl. You know who the owl reminds me of a little bit? Is that was it a Microsoft Word jumping? paperclip? Oh, I know what you're talking about. I've seen like 90s nostalgia stuff of it. It's like with the eyes on it. Yes. Do you remember that bouncy paperclip who was like, that's not how you spell that? Yes. It's giving that, which like the sweetness, you know, it's just that on steroids in

2025. For sure. Okay. We have just a few more questions for you. So duo himself is so obviously anthropomorphized, absurdified. He's a clown. He's a dancer. He's a punisher, a loving, omniscient presence. He's a harbinger of doom. I don't know. Like, he's so much. Does Duolingo staff feel like duo is real? Like, do you ever feel like you're parenting a little cult mascot? I don't know. Like, who is duo to you? So what's interesting is, like, the reason why Duo was able to blow up the way he did, especially in this past like five years, is I think it comes actually down also to the people we hire here and not like, I don't know if it's up to you if it's a bad or good thing. But I think there is the quintessential due lingo employee. And like we actually are like really insane about who

we hire. The process is crazy. We have an insane culture. People are quirky here and they're weird. That is actually like an inherent nature of who we are. You can very much be like, yeah, that's a du lingual employer. Like, no, that person's not. Like it's just, it's going to be hard for them to fit in here. And it's not like an exclusive thing in that sense, but there is a personality, even when I was hiring like on the social team, I can tell within like the first two to three minutes of you're going to be successful here or not based off of your ideas and how you pitch work and who you are. And it's like it's very interesting. Because I actually think a lot of companies have it. But like duos now used it in a sense to our benefit of like, this is our persona on social.

When we act this way and have people who think this way, it actually builds our lore in our world. So let's try to find thinkers who know how to expand on this versus like super traditional marketers or think completely differently in that sense. So I think there is a duolingo employee kind of prototype. And we even have like a doolingo handbook, which we released, which is like about everything about working at duolingo and all the things that go into being a duo is what we call ourselves. So I don't know. I think yes. I think we are a cold, but that's fine. We're all, we're all colds in our own way. Right? Doesn't they tell themselves, right? Yeah. Oh, that is so, that is so fascinating because to your point, Gen Z, I feel like in

general is more suspicious of your co-workers being your family and your workplace being your home or whatever. But because there is so much inherent irony at Duolingo, you could kind of get away with all the same shit. I also think it's very much like there's no double on tanger. We're like, yeah, we are who we are. We're fucking crazy. Join. Like even like this handbook I'm talking about, it's literally like this entire document that our talent brand team, which is a team just meant to recruit duolingo talent and build the brand of what it means to work at duolingo created and it's a priority and it's a thing like we care about our duos and like the in-office culture all of it is like super important we have this thing called duelsary where like every year it's our birthday so we all come

and celebrate our birthday and there's always fun events and like it's like a very duolingo type thing and like this is my first job out of college so i thought this was normal and a lot of people like multiple jobs in or like this is different like it's what it is but it's like this is not how normal workplaces usually are. I think I got away with so much of building the brand because I was okay with it almost or like they were okay with it too because I guess maybe I was part of the cult all along but yeah it's it's really interesting like it's crazy now you're making me like like I'm like second guessing my dire life now you're doing you're doing everything right you're in exactly the right place but blink twice if you need us yeah seriously I'm like the safety sign yeah so I have to

share that during COVID, I became crazy on Duolingo. As did a lot of people, I was heavy in Spanish and French world. I had a very, very long streak, but it was also just a way for me to still remain productive while I was not on anybody's set, not going to work and not going out to restaurants. So it was just a way for me to kind of like build community. And I feel like with this kind of resurgence of political and social unrest, I think people are looking for community again. So what do you think is the emotional need, in your opinion, that dual fills for people, especially during isolating times? I almost feel like it's the lightheartedness of it. Like, I know we talked about a little bit earlier, but like that tension point of it,

just being like not what you would think a language learning app to be. A, it's like stable in a sense of like you can always access it. It's there. It's on your phone. It's free. That's also actually very big. The free app and the premium app, the content is the exact same. We don't actually want bars to like learning a language. Like you should maybe watch a couple ads, but like it'll be the same exact content across both. So I think that reliability and like access is like a big part of it where like it's not a really high barrier to entry kind of helped. And then I think again of it just being like we don't take herself seriously, which a lot of education brands and institutions do. And I think people seeing that makes it almost

feel like it's not as intimidating to learn a language or it's just more approachable. So really, we're just authentic. I hate that word. But like, it kind of feels like. Sorry, it's such a trigger word for me. Completely. We all have them. But that makes a lot of sense.

We're speaking very sensationally and hyperbolicly right now about duolingo. But I do think that there is something sincerely very wholesome and equalizing about an app that at the end of the day is supposed to like bridge. linguistic barriers. That's underneath all of this. Like, even if it is just an iPhone game, it's an iPhone game that is trying to introduce people to new ideas and a new way of seeing the world in a very lighthearted, low temperature way. Like, it is hard for me, and this is wild to say in these times, but it's hard for me to see a world in which there's some like huge controversy that kneecaps duo lingo like it's just such it's like an unproblematic fave yeah exactly and i i think

also with like our popularity with like gen z right like they love that they eat that shit up they're just like you're doing good like okay why not like one brand that's actually finally fucking doing good like we can try to support them and like it makes them okay to be crazy and like cross these lines sometimes yeah there's like paul rud energy at duo like you know what i'm saying like that's actually so funny Because part of my pitch for our strategies, we used to think we were Trevor Noah, like, back in the day. And I was like, guys, we are Jojo Siwa. And the more we accept that, lean into that, the more engagement we will get. It's just the true. People are fucking annoyed by us, but they're always interested. We're not as sexy as Trevor Noah. We just aren't. And like, until we accept that, like. Right. You know? And I think that actually, that was part of my pitch for, like, how we're going to frame our social and, like, build it out is like, we need to just lean into the meme and lean into us being Jojo. It's, like, you know? It's. been an interesting shift also. Like, if you see our content before 2020 on social, totally different. Very happy Earth Day. Hey, this is some language that you can learn. And, like, it just wasn't resonating. Like, people didn't enjoy it as much. So, yeah. Wow. Oh, my God.

You're transforming hearts and minds for better, for worse. I don't know, but Slay. I'm obsessed. I also want to say whoever's idea it was to do the podcast associated with Duo. Baby, let me tell you something. So nicely done. I am obsessed. I read along with the transcriptions. So deep. No, I'm not.

No, I'm not. That's crazy because they actually sunsetted podcasts. That's a trigger word for me, by the way, is Aria to use sunset as a verb. Sends a shivered on my spine. Yum. But yeah, they like, I mean, it's a nice corporate way of saying they killed it. But essentially, like, yeah, they were just like, there's people. who are very deep into it and loved it like you Chelsea, but there's also people who like

didn't know it existed. So like, oh, there's like not much ROI here. But like, I'm going to tell the ex podcast team you said that because they're going to love to hear that. Yes, please, please. And then I have a one final thing to say because I would be remiss if I didn't share this because I am chronically. No, no, no, it's not bad. It's not bad. All the dual team that's listening. You have Haitian Creel. You have High Valerian and you still don't have Louisiana Creel. And there has been a redid thread of like five years of people circling back saying duolingo please please so i'm just throwing my bed in oh my god yes you send this to our CEO done okay beautiful i have zero power but i'm gonna send that shit over put in a word yeah 100% i had to plug it

literally the only like DMs from our CEO and me are like take it fucking down or like or like We're like, you can't have a mascot giving birth. And I'm like, sorry. I'll send it over. What's going to do, ignore my slack? Exactly. Slack it over. Chelsea, love that.

Always feel free to put in a word with our cult-y-ass guests. Incredible. Zaria, you're a dream. Thank you so much for joining this episode of Sounds Like a Cult. If folks want to keep up with you and your work, where can they do that? I'm such a corporate girly. But, okay, actually, so I'm on LinkedIn like Hela, but it's because I didn't realize Substack existed.

So I write a LinkedIn newsletter and it's fun, but I'm trying to actually port it over to Substack eventually. But for now, LinkedIn is probably where you see all my crazy insights and the truth behind what goes on in these doors of DuLingo. Incredible. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you for having me. Okay, Chelsea, it's time.

Out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which do you think the cult of duolingo falls into? Okay, listen. I am, live your life with duo. A thousand percent live your life. I will say, if you are interested in learning a language, though, however, you should maybe supplement it with a little something different. Maybe some one-on-one tutoring, maybe do some Rosetta Stone. It actually, you can go to your public library and you can rent Rosetta Stone for the free ski.

Don't just rely on the cult of duo. Yeah. No, you're so right. It's a live your life, but I think one of the cultiest things about it is the false promise that this is an app for language living. It's not. It's not. It's just an iPhone game. And so if you want to play an iPhone game, live your life.

If you want to learn a language, find a meet up in your city where you can go. speak, I don't know, Esperanto with some other Angelinos or wherever you live. And that's free too. So yeah, I've loved this episode. I'm so glad that Victoria, among many other listeners, suggested it. We read all of your suggestions, y'all. If you comment on our Instagram, especially if you email us, it sounds like a cult pod.com. We take them to heart. Well, that is our show. Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culting. But not too, Colty. Sounds like a cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the pod cabin.

This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Chelsea Charles. This episode was produced by Chelsea Charles. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality, and Wordslet, a feminist guide to taking back the English language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for

all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show. ad-free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.